Orijen

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nyssa

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  • winter joy
Odgovori #30 : 15 Julij 2008, 11:06:56
Pa cene...  :P



Azu

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Odgovori #31 : 15 Julij 2008, 16:52:09
Koliko okusov je na voljo in ali se da dobit testerje?

Laetus Canis - Varstvo psov v Ljubljani

Felix qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas.
(Vergil)


artichoka

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Odgovori #32 : 16 Julij 2008, 22:48:46
... Me pa zanima kakšne pse imate da se zanimate naprimer za orijen brikete,ki vsebujejo 44% beljakovinskih proteinov in 18 % maščob.Pomojem je ta hrana primerna kvečjemu za kakšne vlečne ali pa službene pse(vojska,policija,reševalci) za kakšne druge ,ki naprimer dopoldneve preživijo sami,popoldne malo tečejo za žogico in gredo zvečer do prve zelenice pa bi znala biti na dolgi rok zelo škodljiva.Nevem no po sestavinah je to top hrana na svetu,o primernosti pa bo mogoče kdo kaj več napisal ...

Zakaj naj bi bila visoka vsebnost proteinov oz. beljakovin na dolgi rok skodljiva? Ima mogoce kdo kaksno "znanstveno" razlago, ne samo predvidevanja?



Urška

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Odgovori #33 : 17 Julij 2008, 10:23:40
Morda bi bilo bolje obrniti vprašanje...

So psi prilagojeni na uživanje žitaric? Komur branje angleških tekstov ne dela preglavic, mu priporočam t.i. Orijen - white paper


Še kako je namreč pomembno, kolikšen delež beljakovin v določeni hrani je živalskega in koliko rastlinskega izvora. Pasji organizem lahko namreč izkoristi okvirno samo 60% beljakovin iz žitaric, medtem ko je ta delež pri mesu okrog 90%.

Torej, če vzamemo hrano, kjer je v njeni sestavi navedeno, da ima 30% beljakovin. Kot kupca me še kako zanima izvor teh beljakovin, ker je velika razlika, če moj pes lahko v primeru, da gre za meso, izkoristi 90% (in s tem dejansko izkoristi 27% beljakovin) ali pa v primeru, da gre za beljakovine iz žitaric izkoristi le 60% (izkoristi le 18% od prvotnih 30%).


nyssa

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  • winter joy
Odgovori #34 : 17 Julij 2008, 10:56:07
Glede beljakovin...sama sem Paxxa hranila z mesom oz. neko verzijo RMB in se nama je super obneslo.
Zanima me, če je ta hrana next best thing, ali kaj popolnoma drugega?
Ok, sem malo čudno napisala:
Zanima me, v kolikšni meri se Orijen hrana približa načinu hranjenja s surovim mesom?



Urška

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Odgovori #35 : 17 Julij 2008, 12:40:55
Težko primerjam z RMB, ker gre za popolnoma drugačno filozofijo s poudarkom na svežih sestavinah. Pri RMB je moj pomislek predvsem uravnoteženost (preveč kosti).

Orijen je v grobem sestavljen iz:

70% mesa
30 % sadje, zelenjava in zelišča
0% žitaric



Tullika

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Odgovori #36 : 18 Julij 2008, 11:45:46
Mene tudi nekako mika tale Orijen, sploh po tej najnovejši formuli Canidae :-\  Sploh tisto 0% Grain mi je všeč...  Glede na to da se vas je kar nekaj že javilo s pozitivnimi izkušnjami in samimi pohvalami sem začela resno razmišljati. Se pa srečujem s pomislekom, kako močna hrana je to v bistvu.  No, saj moja dva sta oba kar precej aktivna vsak dan, ampak vseeno. Sem pa šla gledat koliko na dan naj bi se dalo glede na telesno težo, pa vidim da v tem ni pretirane razlike med Canidae in Orijenom.

Se mi pa zdita oba, zdaj ko sta na sveže potrimana , tako suhcena... :-\ ??? Pa oba dobita kar precej več od predpisanega. Pa še kakšne nagrade, priboljške in podobno.

Me pa zanima, če kupim za začetek manjšo vrečo, tako, par kilc, ali se bo že pokazalo kako in kaj, ko jo pojemo do konca? (18,3 kg imamo za približno mesec in pol) Koliko časa približno bi ju morala hraniti, da bi videla odziv?


maja72

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Odgovori #37 : 18 Julij 2008, 12:08:05
Lastne izkušnje: Orijen ni primeren za majhne pse; morda eventuelno različica 6 fish. Nezaželeno pridobivanje teže pri majhnem psu se pokaže zelo hitro; zaželeno pridobivanje pri velikem (s problemom suhosti) se je po cca. 2 mesecih jemanja.



Tullika

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Odgovori #38 : 18 Julij 2008, 13:06:52
Evo, točno tega sem se bala... :-\    Drugega nič pametnega ne najdem, povsod majo nek kukuruz in podobne zadeve zraven.  Torej za enkrat ostajamo na Canidae, bomo videli kako se bo obnesla nova formula... Če ne bo druge, pa 6 ribic na pokušino...


Urška

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Odgovori #39 : 18 Julij 2008, 14:00:20
Maja, kakšne količine pa si hranila? In koliko količinsko v primerjavi s Canidae? Dosedanje izkušnje namreč kažejo, da so količine v tabeli za hranjenje prevelike, večina psov poje manj. Pax pri svojih 50 kg potrebuje 350g hrane na dan, tako, da če se ti pes redi pač zmanjšaš količino. Pri psih, ki ne dobivajo drugega, se lepo kaže zmanjševanje telesne maščobe in boljši mišični tonus.

Količina hrane je pri vseh pasjih hranah zelo različna za posameznega psa. Pax recimo poje 350g hrane na dan, njegov klubski pasji kolega s tretjino manjšo težo pa 500g, imata pač drugačen metabolizem, pa recimo, da je drugi še bistveno bolj aktiven.

Količino hrane je potrebno prilagoditi potrebam posameznega psa, tabela za hranjenje pa naj bo neko, res okvirno vodilo.



nyssa

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  • winter joy
Odgovori #40 : 18 Julij 2008, 14:08:45
Vsi moji psi dobivajo manjšo količino hrane, kot je napisana na tabelah  :-\ Recimo Paxx(27 kg trenutno) naj bi po večini tabel pojedel okoli 250 - 350 g.
No, Paxxov obrok je razdeljen na dva dela(kadar ne je mesa) in zjutraj in zvečer dobi po 110 g. Se pravi: na dan 220 g. Če bi jedel več, bi se zredil. Njegova hrana ima 22% beljakovin in 11% maščob.
Gaja(7,5 kg) pa...bi morala pojest okoli 150 g na dan kvalitetne hrane.No,dobi na dan 80g briketov. 40 g na obrok.
Če bi jedla več, bi se zredila.
Gledam tele tabele od Orijena in ugotavljam, da bi Paxx verjetno potreboval kakšnih 180-200 g na dan ali pa še celo dosti manj.



maja72

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Odgovori #41 : 18 Julij 2008, 14:29:55
Bajk (FCR): Canidae cca. 600 g (2 x 220 v skledo + 160 g poklikano), pes je imel 29 kg (normalno bi bilo zanj cca. 37 kg). Orijen mu zdaj dajem cca. 500 g, da pridemo na normalno težo, potem upam, da mu bom dajala recimo 400 g. Najprej je nekaj shujšal  ::), potem pa počasi pridobiva na teži, in sicer na mišični masi, kar je res zelo opazno in zame občutno največja prednost te hrane  :-*. Dlako ima sanjsko lepo (popolnoma vranje črna, svetleča, voljna na otip), drekci so ok, nobene alergije ni, muljenje trave se je bistveno zmanjšalo.

Amelie (PRT): Canidae cca. 150 g, Orijena bi bilo treba dati po moji oceni največ 100 g, kar pa pri nama ne pride v poštev, saj ji vsaj 120 g dnevno naklikam. Problem Orijena zame osebno pri tako majhnem psu je, da ga zaradi hranljive vrednosti ne morem uporabljati za klikanje. Tako majhnega psa 90 % klikam na brikete, ker če bi pri najini količini klikanja delala samo na recimo sir ali salamo, bi na dan pojedla naklikan sir in le 10 g briketov  :-\, kar s stališča razvoja seveda ni ok.

Volumensko gledano pride pri isti teži Canidae in Orijen briketov Orijena precej manjše število briketov na 100 g - torej manj klikov  :-9. Kdor pa s psom ne dela na kliker in meni, da bi pes prišel "psihološko" skozi z 2 obrokoma po cca. 40 g, kar pride ene 50-60 briketov, pa hrano seveda priporočam tudi za majhne fickote ;). Ker Amelie in Bajk jesta skupaj, ostane od poklikanega za Amelijino skledo 8 g briketov  ;D, zato ji dajem veliko sadja in stvari, s katerimi se zamoti, da jesta približno enako časa (ni treba nekomu čakati) in na koncu lahko za poliz zamenjata skledi, kar jima predstavlja vrhunec hranjenja  ::).

Primerjava velikosti Canidae (levo) in Orijen (desno):


Takole je zgledal pes pri 600 g Canidae in je bilo veterinarsko zagotovo z njim vse ok (zdaj so rebra sicer še prosto vidna, ampak se vidno popravlja):



Urška

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Odgovori #42 : 18 Julij 2008, 15:16:54
Za Paxa predstavlja Orijen količinsko bistveno manjši obrok kot prejšnja hrana, poleg tega pa mu količino razdelim na dva obroka, zato sem se bala, da mu bo ta količina hrane premajhna. Na moje začudenje je vse popolnoma OK, zato me je zanimalo zakaj. Vzrok pa tiči v sestavi hrane, ki zaradi manjše vsebnosti OH v pasjem organizmu ne povzroča takih nihanj glukoze in tako tudi boljši občutek sitosti oz. manši občutek lakote (vzrok tiči v nižjem glikemičnem indeksu).


Tullika

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Odgovori #43 : 18 Julij 2008, 16:28:15
Torej še obstaja upanje... ;D Kako z nagrajevanjem, moram pa še pogruntati.  Majo tut kako light varianto, da bi za nagrajevanje bilo?  Sej če znotraj iste firme hrano menjavaš,naj ne bi bilo pretirane škode ne?


Urška

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Odgovori #44 : 18 Julij 2008, 17:46:41
Orijen za pse obstaja v različicah:
- Puppy (hrana za mladiče)
- Puppy Large Breed (hrana za mladiče velikih pasem)
- Adult (hrana za odrasle pse s piščancem, puranom in ribami)
- 6 Fresh fish with sea vegetables (hrana za ostasle pse s 6 vrstami svežih rb in morskimi algami)
- Senior (hrana za starejše pse)

Poleg tega obstaja še hrana za mačke, ki se zelo dobro obnese tudi pri hišnih dihurčkih.

Sestava vseh hran je kot sem že napisala:
70% mesa
30% sadja, zelenjave in zelišč
0% žitaric

Lahka različica Orijena žal ne obstaja. Zame zanimiva povratna informacija tistih, ki že nekaj časa hranijo s to hrano pa je, da so psi bolj suhi, bolj čvrsti in mišično bolj razviti.



maja72

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Odgovori #45 : 18 Julij 2008, 17:57:47
Absolutno se strinjam glede mišic, skladnost telesa je postala krasna in meni recimo Bajk deluje v telo kot kakšen atletski konjiček  :-*. Še par kilc gor, pa bo enkratno. Super Urška tole z glikemičnim indeksom  :o. Na to še pomislila nisem  :-[. Je pa zagotovo izkoristek hrane super, saj se je količina blata zmanjšala. Glede Orijena z naše strani torej same pohvale in priporočila  :-*. Sem tudi razdelila kar nekaj testnih vrečk (sem jih naredila sama iz Bajkove hrane) in upam, da bo preskuševalcem všeč ;). Hvala Urški za tole hrano, zdaj nas sosedi končno ne zmerjajo več, da imamo sestradanega psa  :D.

Sem pa za štos šla preštet briketke:
Canidae, 100 g = 292 briketov; pri dnevni dozi 150 g = 438 briketov/klikov (cca. 22 sklopov vaj)
Orijen, 100 g = 212 briketov; pri dnevni dozi 90 g = 190 briketov/klikov (cca. 9 sklopov vaj).
Torej z Orijenom naredim z Amelie več kot pol manj klikov z nagrado-hrano kot pri Canidae  :(.



zoe

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Odgovori #46 : 18 Julij 2008, 18:02:16
Kako pa to, da je ogromno znamk hrane na tržišču, ki imajo čisto drugačno sestavo?
Je kakšna slaba stran Orijenove sestave?

"Get over your hill and see what you find there, with grace in your heart and flowers in your hair"


sasha

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Odgovori #47 : 18 Julij 2008, 18:33:15
Urška mene pa nekaj zanima..glede na to, da psom, ki so nagnjeni k displaziji kolkov odsvetujejo beljakovinsko bogato hrano, kaj zdaj to pomeni pri Orijenu, glede na to, da vsebuje res visok delez beljakovin?
Pa ali je to res hrana za zelo aktivne pse kot pravijo nekateri ali bi bila primerna tudi za povprecno aktivnega psa (2-3× tedensko aktivni treningi + vsak dan kaksen aktiven sprehod)?

Hvala!

p.s. Kakšne so pa pakunge? Pa cene?
p.p.s A obstajajo kaksni testercki? :-[



Tullika

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Odgovori #48 : 18 Julij 2008, 19:49:29
No, všeč mi je kar berem. ;D
Zdaj počakam še na odgovor sashi... :-[ 
Tokratnja pakunga Canidae bo še po tastari recepturi, ker pride nova k nam baje šele konec julija, tako da bomo teh 18 kg še popapcali, potem bom pa res probala tole zadevo...


nyssa

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Odgovori #49 : 18 Julij 2008, 19:55:18
Torej: če je 70% mesa, 30% zelenjave,sadja in zelišč in 0% žitaric, potem je precej podobna prehrani, ki jo prakticiram jaz. Oz.sem jo, pa sem opustila, ker je bilo preveč zamudno.
Velja poskusiti.
Urška, kako je pa s poštnino?



zoe

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Odgovori #50 : 18 Julij 2008, 22:22:31
No, všeč mi je kar berem. ;D
Zdaj počakam še na odgovor sashi... :-[ 
Tokratnja pakunga Canidae bo še po tastari recepturi, ker pride nova k nam baje šele konec julija, tako da bomo teh 18 kg še popapcali, potem bom pa res probala tole zadevo...

Kaj pa bo z novo Canidae?

"Get over your hill and see what you find there, with grace in your heart and flowers in your hair"


KJ

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Odgovori #51 : 18 Julij 2008, 22:43:24
Ja Tullika, mene tudi zanima, kaj bo z "novo" Canidae in od kje ta informacija?



Urška

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Odgovori #52 : 19 Julij 2008, 01:03:05
Nyssa, najprej odgovor tebi, namesto skeniranja sem obljubljeno zadevo našla na spletu, pa predvidevam, da bo zanimala še koga http://mousabilities.com/nutrition/crf/bovee_protein_RD.pdf

Vsa hrana (z izjemo mačje) obstaja v
400g
2,5 kg
7 kg in
13,5 kg pakiranju.

Testerčkov v klasični obliki ni, bo pa v ta namen na voljo 400g pakiranje po zelo sprejemljivi ceni. Testerčki kot taki so za kakršenkoli preizkus, če bo pes hrano res jedel, absolutno premajhni, ker je večina psov pripravljena pojesti karkoli novega, tako, da naj bi bilo testne količine hrane vsaj za 3-5 dni.

Zakaj je na trgu ogromno hran drugačne sestave? Odgovor je podoben kot na vprašanje, zakaj je med pasjimi hranami v sloveniji na 1. mestu še vedno Pedigree ali zakaj se proizvodne linije selijo iz zahoda na vzhod? Vse se začne in konča pri ceni vhodnih sestavin, njihovi dostopnosti in zaslužkih.

Sasha, tebi pa obljubljam odgovor čez vikend. Si moram vzeti malo časa, da napišem tako, kot se spodobi.


Urška

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Odgovori #53 : 19 Julij 2008, 01:55:37
Sasha, še odgovor tebi. Pa Nyssa, tudi ti boš zagotovo našla še kakšno dodatno informacijo, enako pa vsi ostali, ki jih tematika zanima.

Odgovor prihaja kar direktno s strani proizvajalca, če kdo želi pa bom napisala še povzetek v slovenščini.

Citiraj
Hello again and thanks for writing on this subject.


We agree with your position regarding the affect of protein on large breed puppies and the kidneys: In both cases, calcium and in particular phosphorus are the key indicators – not protein. Given that we are producers, I can certainly understand that dog owners would be skeptical of our position, so the best way to present our protein-based argument might be to offer you research and opinion independent of our own.

I’ll start by confirming that AAFCO does not publish a maximum protein amount for dogs and neither do they have a minimum for carbohydrate. As protein in the diet increases, carbohydrate decreases which mimics the natural diet for which dogs and cats are evolved (in nature, dogs eat very few carbohydrates and are evolved to metabolize proteins and fats from meat). AAFCO however does set maximum levels for calcium and phosphorus (these can be substantiated by googling “AAFCO nutrient levels for dogs”). When present in excess, phosphorus in particular is known to have a negative effect on the kidneys (see research cited below) and, when combined with excess calcium, phosphorus also affect the rate of skeletal development (a concern for large breeds). Now we’re not saying that AAFCO is the “be all, end all” – they’re not, but AAFCO does set a minimum and maximum nutrient inclusions, which provides a useful start point (interestingly enough, you’ll also see brands like ROYAL CANIN and EUKANUBA SIZE now feature large breed puppy diets above 30% in protein – which was unheard of 3 or 4 years ago…

On large breed puppies (taken from the “b natural site” (An excellent information resource) http://b-naturals.com):

www.eukanuba-eu.com
This article reiterates that high protein does not cause OCD or HD, in either the hips or elbows:

Research into the growth of Great Danes (Nap RC, The Netherlands,) has shown that the protein level of a diet has no significant influence on skeletal development. High protein intake does not result in increased risk for OCD or HD, and there is no effect on the development in the longitudinal growth of the bone."

Additionally, while protein does not cause orthopedic problems, other nutrients can.

www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu
"In addition to excessive calcium intake, researchers have shown that over nutrition can also initiate these disturbances in skeletal maturation and growth. An excess protein intake, without an excess of other nutrients revealed NOT to influence skeletal maturation and growth in growing Great Danes (Ref. 2)."

This would include supplementation of calcium to processed diets, or could occur when feeding raw diets to puppies that are more than 50% raw meaty bones. Calcium amounts are adequate in commercial pet foods, and a diet of no more than 40% to 50% raw meaty bones is an appropriate amount for a growing puppy. This article also concludes that certain breeds may require less calcium than others for proper growth:

Further, the above article goes on to state:

"Therefore it is advised not to feed young dogs ad libitum or excessively, to prevent the development of (causative factors for) osteoartrosis. It is also common practice to advise a weight loosing programme to those dogs which suffer from osteoarthrosis as an aspect of conservative treatment or as an aid in surgical treatment of dogs with ED."

It is not excess protein that causes joint problems, but over feeding dogs can contribute to arthritis and orthopedic problems. Please note that most orthopedic and joint problems are inherited, but puppies and dogs that are over weight have a greater chance of an increase in pain and discomfort, and the potential of developing orthopedic problems as younger animals and arthritis later on in their life.

And while some nutritionists recommend feeding more fiber than meat and protein for weight gain, this can also have consequences, as it can block absorption:

www4.nas.edu
"The most obvious way to help a dog trim down is to feed it smaller amounts of food on its regular feeding schedule, and to make sure the dog is not being fed table scraps or getting into the food bowls of other dogs in the neighborhood. Owners may also choose a low-calorie "diet" dog food or food high in fiber, which may help the dog feel full without consuming too many calories. Too much fiber, however, can reduce the absorption of important nutrients."

In conclusion, a logical response to feeding puppies would include:

- Use high quality proteins:

These include using premium brands of dog food, or if feeding a raw or home cooked diet, use as much variety in animal proteins as possible. Don't skimp on the amount of proteins fed as these contribute to healthy growth, organ health and strong immune systems.

- Keep puppies and growing dogs lean.

Overweight and obese dogs have a much higher chance of developing arthritis and orthopedic problems.

- Don't overdose the Calcium:

Do not supplement with calcium if you use a commercial diet. For raw diets, use 50% or less of raw meaty bones in growing dogs. For home cooked diets, supplement at no more than 800 milligrams per pound of food served.

- Don't use high fiber diets for weight reduction:

Fiber, starches and grains can actually block certain nutrient uptake from the food served.




As regards the concept of protein negatively affecting the kidneys this is simply not the case. We have not found a single study to confirm this position and have mounds to the contrary. I have taken the liberty of copying a few of the studies that are available on-line below. I should perhaps also point out that not all high-protein diets are equal. Some foods generate high-protein by using meals, which are typically high in ash, and therefore high in mineral content of which – you guessed it – elevated levels calcium and phosphorus would be a concern to large breed puppies, and phosphorus in general for kidney health in dogs of all breeds and life-stages. The information below is taken from www.dogaware.com – a great site for general information.

Please write again if I can be of further assistance.



Warm Regards,
*******
www.championpetfoods.com





Is a Low Protein Diet Necessary or Desirable?
Following are links to a series of articles and studies on the roles of protein and phosphorus in the diet of dogs with kidney failure. I have provided excerpts from these articles, but I would encourage you to read them in their entirety if you are dealing with a dog with kidney disease, as many of them contain a great deal more information than I will show here.

Dogs with kidney problems by Dr. Lucy Pinkston, D.V.M.
"Because by-products of protein digestion are the main toxins that need to be excreted by the kidneys, an obvious assumption might be that all one needs to do is to cut out the protein and the kidneys wouldn't have any more hard work to do. . . . There is significant evidence, however, that the daily protein requirements actually increase slightly for dogs in chronic renal failure. Therefore, severely restricting the protein for such a dog is likely to result in protein malnutrition, in spite of the fact that the levels of blood urea nitrogen, or BUN (the primary by-product of protein metabolism) would be correspondingly lower." This article contains a great deal more useful information in easy to read format.

Are High Protein Diets Harmful to a Dog's Kidneys? from the Veterinary Services Department, Drs. Foster & Smith, Inc.
"The myth that high-protein diets are harmful to kidneys probably started because, in the past, patients with kidney disease were commonly placed on low-protein (and thus low-nitrogen) diets. Now we often put them on a diet that is not necessarily very low in protein but contains protein that is more digestible so there are fewer nitrogen by-products."

The Mythology of Protein Restriction for Dogs with Reduced Renal Function by Kenneth C. Bovee, DVM, MMedSc
"Morris subsequently developed, produced, and sold a low-protein diet, KD, for dogs with renal failure. He and others were influenced by the erroneous work hypertrophy concept for urea excretion advanced by Addis. While experimental or clinical data were never published to support the value of this or other diets, the concept was broadly accepted without challenge in the veterinary literature." This article talks about the history of protein restriction, and about 10 recent experimental studies that have failed to provide evidence of the benefit of reduced dietary protein to influence the course of renal failure. This article is no longer on line, but I have a copy of it that I could send to anyone who is interested in reading it (ask for Bovee.pdf).

Nutrition and Renal Function from the Purina Research Report
"Dietary Protein and Renal Function: Results of multiple studies indicated that there were no adverse effects of the high protein diets." This report also includes information on metabolic acidosis and on the beneficial effects of omega-3 essential fatty acids in patients with chronic renal failure. The complete reports on each of the three studies mentioned in this report are no longer available online, but I have copies of them that I could send to anyone who is interested in reading more, as follows: "Effects of Dietary Lipids on Renal Function in Dogs and Cats" (ask for Brown.pdf); "Effects of Dietary Protein Intake on Renal Functions" (ask for Finco.pdf); and "Acid-Base, Electrolytes, and Renal Failure" (ask for Polzin.pdf).

Feeding the Older Dog from the SpeedyVet Clinical Nutrition Library
"The assumption was that low-protein diets retarded the progression of renal degeneration. This assumption was disproved, using partially nephrectomised dogs, which showed no uraemic signs and had reduced but stable renal function for 48 months. These dogs did better on moderate-protein diets than on low-protein diets. There is no direct evidence that high protein intake damages canine kidneys or that reducing protein intake in dogs with renal dysfunction results in preservation of either renal structure or function."

Dietary Management of Chronic Polyuric Renal Failure from the SpeedyVet Clinical Nutrition Library
"Dietary protein restriction improves the clinical signs and quality of life of uraemic animals with both naturally occurring and experimentally induced renal failure. . . . However it is highly questionable whether protein restriction is appropriate in the azotaemic, but non-uraemic patient. The main risk of protein restriction is protein deficiency. The protein and amino acid requirements of dogs and cats with chronic renal failure have not been established, but may well be increased. . . . The main justification for protein restriction early in the course of renal failure would be if it was proven to slow progression of disease. The data that are available do not support this case in dogs. Dietary protein has been shown to affect renal haemodynamics in the dog, however, moderate protein restriction does not alleviate glomerular hypertension, hyperfiltration and hypertrophy. . . . Thus there is no evidence that moderate protein restriction slows the progression of renal failure in dogs, and it is not recommended in dogs which are not uraemic."

Demystifying Myths About Protein from Today's Breeder Magazine
"In contrast, research over the past 10 years or so has shown that protein does not harm the kidney of dogs. In studies conducted at the University of Georgia in the early 1990s, both in dogs with chronic kidney failure and in older dogs with only one kidney, protein levels as high as 34 percent caused no ill effects. . . . In other studies, David S. Kronfeld, Ph.D., indicated that compared with high- or low-protein diets, moderate-protein diets, those with up to 34 percent protein, had no ill effects in dogs with chronic renal failure and were associated with general improvement."

Fortify The Food Bowl For The Aging Canine by Susan Thorpe-Vargas, Ph.D. and John C. Cargill, M.A., M.B.A., M.S.
"Because of certain biochemical requirements, the healthy geriatric dog requires about 50 percent more protein than the young adult, and depending on the quality of the protein, it should make up 20 percent to 30 percent of the total calories ingested. . . . Until recently, protein restriction was recommended in an effort to protect renal function. Limiting protein fails to prevent urinary filtration problems . . . Indeed, newer research shows dietary protein is not detrimental to kidney function. On the contrary, protein restriction can result in impaired wound healing, diminished immune function and lowered enzyme activities and cellular turnover. Those dogs with impaired renal function do better with dietary phosphorus restriction; however, limiting this mineral is unlikely to delay the onset of renal disease or to benefit healthy geriatric dogs."

Dietary Management for Clinical Disorders in Dogs from the Journal of Indian Veterinary Association, Kerala
"Recent research on dietary protein and the kidney has shown that
o dietary protein does not cause renal failure
o dietary protein does not appear to be involved in the progression of chronic renal failure
o inappropriate restriction of dietary protein may actually have an adverse effect on the normal or compromised kidney"

Kidney Failure from the Iams nutrition symposium
“'For years, physicians and veterinarians have treated renal failure by reducing protein levels in diets,' said Gregory Reinhart PhD, an Iams researcher. 'After working with leading universities, we have now found that restricting protein in a dog's diet may do more harm than good by potentially putting the companion animal at risk of protein malnutrition.'”

Managing a Renal Crisis by Martha S. Gearhart, DVM
". . . at least one study has taken several groups of dogs in kidney failure and fed them diets that varied in protein level and phosphorus level. The groups with severely restricted phosphorus lived longer than the groups with normal or high levels of phosphorus. The protein intake made no difference at all in longevity. . . .
"It is important to remember that phosphorus is more important than protein -- feeding vegetables or salt-free crackers to a dog in kidney failure will not add protein but it will add phosphorus."

Dietary Protein and the Kidney by Patricia Schenck, DVM, PhD, Veterinary Nutritionist
"High protein diets cause an increase in blood flow through the kidney (glomerular filtration rate). The myth has been that if the dietary protein is restricted, this will make the kidney work less, and will ‘spare' the kidney from damage. Thus in the past, many have recommended low protein diets to ‘protect' a dog from developing kidney disease. This has been the focus of considerable research over the last 10 years. There has been no scientific evidence to support this theory. The feeding of low levels of dietary protein are NOT protective against the development of kidney disease.
"Reducing dietary protein in the older pet will not protect them from the development of renal disease. In fact, reducing the protein in the older dog's diet may have adverse effects. As pets age, their ability to utilize nutrients decreases. The older pet actually requires a higher level of protein to maintain its body stores of protein than does the younger adult dog. . . .
"Dietary protein restriction is appropriate in renal failure when the disease has become severe. Restriction of protein is based on the appearance of clinical signs. It has been recommended to start protein restriction when the dog's BUN (blood urea nitrogen) is greater than 80 mg/dL [28.6 mmol/L], and the serum creatinine is greater than 2.5 mg/dL [221 µmol/L]. Both BUN and serum creatinine are good indicators of kidney function. Protein is restricted in an attempt to keep the BUN below 60 mg/dL [21.4 mmol/L]. Dietary protein may need to be gradually decreased over time as renal failure progresses."

Effects of low phosphorus, medium protein diets in dogs with chronic renal failure
"In this study, 60 dogs with early CRF were fed either Medium Protein Diet, (CMP group) or a home-made diet (HMD group) which respectively contained 0.36% phosphorus, 27% protein, and 0.38% phosphorus, 21.5% protein on a dry matter basis, over a 28 week period. . . .
"From the results of this study, it can be concluded that many dogs with mild to moderate CRF can benefit from early diagnosis of the condition and dietary management using a diet with a low phosphorus and moderate protein content."

Dietary Protein by Dr. Jeff Vidt, specialist in Chinese Shar-Pei and Renal Amyloidosis

 "Increased levels of dietary protein do not seem to change rate of progression of kidney failure. Protein levels in the diet do not seem to affect mortality, rate of progression of uremia or the development of kidney lesions.

 Decreased protein levels in the diet may impair immune responses, decrease hemo-globin levels, cause anemia, decrease total protein levels and result in muscle wasting. . . .

 Dietary protein levels do not appear to be involved in the progression of renal disease or play a role in the prevention of kidney failure. . . .

 When the BUN is greater than 75mg/dl [26.8 mmol/L] and/or signs of uremia develop, moderate protein restriction is indicated to decrease the BUN and the clinical signs. Phosphorus restriction is also indicated at this time."

Protein Restriction and Kidney Disease Extracts from Kirk's Current Veterinary Therapy XII, with links to a number of abstracts:
"In perhaps the most noted clinical trial examining effects of high protein diet on progression of CRD, groups of dogs diagnosed with CRD were fed either high protein diets or low protein diets. No significant difference was observed in the rate of progression of CRD in the high-protein group compared to the low protein group. Therefore, excess protein in the diet did not appear to compromise renal function even in the presence of high endogenous levels of protein associated with the disease. In fact, on an individual basis some of the CRD dogs in the high protein diet group faired better. This finding was postulated to be associated with the fact that protein is required for cellular repair and function."

Note that the above sites are from very traditional sources, including Purina and Iams. I think Hills is the only company still toeing the "low protein" line. The thinking now is that low protein can actually be harmful, and that a moderate amount of high quality protein is desirable for dogs with kidney disease. In addition, feeding reduced protein to dogs with normal kidneys does not help prevent kidney failure.

See http://lpi.orst.edu/infocenter/minerals/phosphorus/ for (human oriented) information on phosphorus and what excess levels in the blood do.


irzi

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Odgovori #54 : 19 Julij 2008, 07:16:28

"I did then what I knew then, when I knew better, I did better."
Maya Angelou


Urška

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Odgovori #55 : 19 Julij 2008, 13:27:38
Ko smo že pri psih, nagnjenih k težavam s sklepi pa še tole. Zadnja spoznanja kažejo, da imajo najboljše rezultate tisti psi, ki jim je v mladosti, v času oblikovanja sklepa, dnevno veliko časa gibljejo, vendar brez ekstremov. Psi rastejo počasneje, bolj enakomerno in z veliko manj težavami kot njihovi vrstniki, ki gredo enkrat dnevno na intenziven sprehod. Obstaja super članek na to temo, ko ga najdem bom objavila link do njega.


Urška

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Odgovori #56 : 19 Julij 2008, 17:57:07
Še link, pa kopirala ga bom še v temo o displaziji http://www.showdogsupersite.com/hips.html


sasha

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Odgovori #57 : 21 Julij 2008, 12:58:13
Se pravi na kratko: vsebnost proteinov nima vpliva na okostje, ampak ga imata kalcij in fosfor?

Urska kje se da pa narocit to hrano?



Urška

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Odgovori #58 : 21 Julij 2008, 13:34:13
Razmerje med kalcijem in fosforjem, njuna količina in splošen vnos energije (rastoči mladiči ne smejo imeti prevelike telesne teže). Zelo na hitro.



Desobediencia

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Odgovori #59 : 29 Julij 2008, 18:44:45
Kakšna je pa približno cena za npr. 15 kg pakiranje?

Dogo Argentino - El Mas Mejor

Nochi tlen onca no huelitli mo patlaz, xic cualmeztli mo mantica, moyolica, inic ti nemiz inahuac yeliztli.