Tema: Surova hrana

[Fero]

Ko enkrat dobiš mladiča od vzreditelja, je to, kakšne kolke bo imel že več ali manj odločeno. Svojega mladiča seveda vsak lahko hrani tako, kot se mu zdi prav. Sama bi sicer vsakemu kupcu mojega mladiča odsvetovala hranjenje izključno s surovim mesom, a če želi lahko. Dokler ne naredi vidne škode. Briketi pa - nekateri spodbujajo prehitro rast, drugi pa ne.

Ja, tisto "več ali manj" se da tudi s prehrano nekoliko regulirat. Jaz pa nikoli ne bi svetovala mešano prehrano, ni dobrega izkoristka.

[Taar]

V Avstriji v Tommy's Zoo v Grazu imajo cel hladilnik od ene firme, ki ima BARF. Imajo take velike vreče zmrznjenih reči, pa neke male kockice za dodajat, pa...svašta, no.
Imajo nek celovit sistem in vse po vrečah spakirano koliko in kaj bi naj dal. No, če koga zanima...
Aja, so pa bile kar precej drage zadevice, če se prav spomnim.

Ja, saj ko bo to k nam prišlo, bo cel hit in bodo na veliko kupovali. Namreč dejansko je marsikomu težko narediti miselni preskok, da psi jedo meso, meso živih bitij in mleto, neprepoznavno mešanico je veliko lažje dati. Nizozemka je rekla, da pri njih je na desetine proizvajalcev teh mletih mešanic (nič čudnega, pri njih so že malo bolj napredni, se spomnim 2004, ko sem komaj začela z agailityjem, kako je bil tam odnos do psov svetlobna leta daleč pred nami). Tudi na hrvaškem je en mesar, ki to dela. Moja kolegica z argentinko se je na Hrvaško vozila po to hrano, samo je bila res draga. Tudi trasport je bil tako urejen, da si moral sam do proizvajalca. Cena je višja zaradi dela (mletja) ter skladiščenja in prevoza. Namreč to so izdelki, ki zahtevajo enako skrb kot sladoled, konstantno temperaturo in mora biti trgovina, ki bi to prodajala, urejena po drugačnih standardih (zato pa še ni pri nas). No, tej kolegici z argentinko je prišlo cenovno kar drago in potem je šla na normalno surovo. Gledala sem tudi sestavo te hrvaške mešanice in nič posebnega, notri so zmleti bili požiralniki, sapnice, nekaj organov, obrezki... Torej nič posebnega, to kar jaz itak dobim zastonj v klavnici. In sploh dobra stran sapnic in požiralnikov je to, da je treba zelo gristi in se z njimi ubadati, se mi  zdi greh, da bi to mleli.

Pa še to je pri teh mešanicah, ne veš točno, kaj gre noter. Iz kje je meso itd. Če pa greš v klavnico ti pa povedo še od katerega kmeta je prišlo in vse, in to v parih urah po zakolu prevzameš. Pa še to, v Ameriki so mešanice zloglasne po tem, da gre noter ogromno koščenih delov, so skoraj same kosti, hrbti in vratovi zmleti, torej res najcenejši odpadni deli, kar je pa prekoščeno, da bi le to hranil.

[Taar]

Ja, tisto "več ali manj" se da tudi s prehrano nekoliko regulirat. Jaz pa nikoli ne bi svetovala mešano prehrano, ni dobrega izkoristka.

Tako je, pri mešanju rastlinskih vlaknin v hrano se absorbcija nutrientov, esencialnih aminokislin, mineralov in vitaminov spremeni. Raziskovalci se s tem zelo ubadajo, recimo ko poskušajo narediti hrano za debele živali (zakaj so predebele, ni treba razlagat). Torej več vlaknin dodajo, tudi odvisno od vrste vlaknin, slabša je absorbcija. Zato je treba taki mešani hrani umetno dodati nutriente. Take snovi se imenujejo antinutritional factors in zmanjšujejo  prebavljivost proteinov. Posebn oopozarjajo na to pri starejših osebkih, ki potrebujejo še bolj primerno, lahko razradljivo hrano, ker so še bolj nagnjeni k slabšemu izkoristku. Žalostno, meni je veterinar tvezil, da stari psi potrebujejo manj proteinov. Žalostno.

 AOAC Int. 2005 May-Jun;88(3):967-87.
Effects of antinutritional factors on protein digestibility and amino acid availability in foods.
Gilani GS, Cockell KA, Sepehr E.

Health Canada, Nutrition Research Division, Bureau of Nutritional Sciences, Banting Research Centre (AL: 2203 C), Tunney's Pasture, Ottawa, ON, K1A 0L2, Canada. [email protected]

Abstract
Digestibility of protein in traditional diets from developing countries such as India, Guatemala, and Brazil is considerably lower compared to that of protein in typical North American diets (54-78 versus 88-94%). The presence of less digestible protein fractions, high levels of insoluble fiber, and high concentrations of antinutritional factors in the diets of developing countries, which are based on less refined cereals and grain legumes as major sources of protein, are responsible for poor digestibility of protein. The effects of the presence of some of the important antinutritional factors on protein and amino digestibilities of food and feed products are reviewed in this chapter. Food and feed products may contain a number of antinutritional factors that may adversely affect protein digestibility and amino acid availability. Antinutritional factors may occur naturally, such as glucosinolates in mustard and rapeseed protein products, trypsin inhibitors and hemagglutinins in legumes, tannins in legumes and cereals, phytates in cereals and oilseeds, and gossypol in cottonseed protein products. Antinutritional factors may also be formed during heat/alkaline processing of protein products, yielding Maillard compounds, oxidized forms of sulfur amino acids, D-amino acids, and lysinoalanine (LAL, an unnatural amino acid derivative). The presence of high levels of dietary trypsin inhibitors from soybeans, kidney beans, or other grain legumes can cause substantial reductions in protein and amino acid digestibilities (up to 50%) in rats and pigs. Similarly, the presence of high levels of tannins in cereals, such as sorghum, and grain legumes, such as fababean (Vicia faba L.), can result in significantly reduced protein and amino acid digestibilities (up to 23%) in rats, poultry, and pigs. Studies involving phytase supplementation of production rations for swine or poultry have provided indirect evidence that normally encountered levels of phytates in cereals and legumes can reduce protein and amino acid digestibilities by up to 10%. D-amino acids and LAL formed during alkaline/heat treatment of proteins such as casein, lactalbumin, soy protein isolate, or wheat proteins are poorly digestible (less than 40%), and their presence can reduce protein digestibility by up to 28% in rats and pigs. A comparison of the protein digestibility determination in young (5-week) versus old (20-month) rats suggests greater susceptibility to the adverse effects of antinutritional factors in old rats than in young rats. Therefore, the inclusion of protein digestibility data obtained with young rats, as the recommended animal model, in the calculation of PDCAAS (Protein Digestibility-Corrected Amino Acid Score) may overestimate protein digestibility and quality of products, especially those containing antinutritional factors, for the elderly. For products specifically intended for the elderly, protein digestibility should be determined using more mature rats.

[Taar]

Tukaj so merili, kako dodajanje vlaknin zavira absorbcijo prebavljivih proteinov pri mačkah.

J Anim Physiol Anim Nutr (Berl). 2004 Apr;88(3-4):138-42.

Effect of different fibre types on the digestibility of nutrients in cats.
Fekete SG, Hullár I, Andrásofszky E, Kelemen F.

Institute of Animal Breeding, Nutrition and Laboratory Animal Science, SZIU Faculty of Veterinary Science, Budapest, Hungary. [email protected]

Abstract
In this study the effect of different fibre types was investigated on the acceptance of foods (in a short-term study) and on the nutrients' digestibility by using 10 adult, castrated cats. Peanut hull (PH, source of lignin), dried sugar beet pulp (SBP, source of hemicelluloses and pectin) and alfalfa meal (ALF, source of cellulose) were mixed to a poultry meat based cat food in 10% on dry matter (DM) basis. The average DM intake did only slightly differ according to the type of fibre added. Supplementation of basal food by dried SBP did not influence the digestibility of DM and crude protein (CP) significantly. Using ALF as a fibre source decreased the digestibility of DM (85.8% vs. 78.6%) and CP (93.8% vs. 92.0%) significantly. More severe decline could be observed in the digestibility of DM (85.8% vs. 63.4%) and CP (93.8% vs. 83.7%) when using PH as a fibre source. Fibre sources also influenced the stool DM content significantly. While application of PH increased the DM content of the faeces (45.0% vs. 49.6%), the use of dried sugar beet or ALF reduced the faecal DM content (45.0% vs. 24.1% and 39.0%, respectively). According to these results the less digestible fibre source (PH) increased the DM content of the faeces while by improving the digestibility of the fibre sources the DM content of the faeces decreased. It can be concluded, that not only the absolute fibre content of the food but also the type of fibre must be taken into account when evaluating its possible role as a component of weight loss products.

[Taar]

J Anim Physiol Anim Nutr (Berl). 2001 Jun;85(5-6):174-85.

Effect of cellulose on the digestibility of high starch versus high fat diets in dogs.Kienzle E, Dobenecker B, Eber S.

Institut für Physiologie, Physiologische Chemie und Tierernährung, Ludwig-Maximilians-Universität, München, Germany.

Abstract
The effects of cellulose added in three levels (7, 15 and 20% crude fibre in dry matter) to three different basal diets (a high fat diet, a high starch diet with raw starch and a high starch diet with cooked starch) on apparent digestibility were investigated in eight adult dogs. Cellulose had little effect on the apparent digestibility of fat. In the high fat diet there was no significant decrease, not even at the highest cellulose level (98.3% compared with 98.1% in the basal high fat diet). In the cooked starch diets, fat digestibility decreased from 95.1% in the basal cooked starch diet to 93.8% at the highest cellulose level. In the raw starch diets, digestibility did not decrease with increasing cellulose levels. The apparent digestibility of crude protein was considerably decreased by cellulose in all diets. Starch also decreased protein digestibility and the effects of cellulose and starch appeared to be additive (high fat diet decrease of protein digestibility from 86.7 to 83.5%, cooked starch from 81.6 to 78.6%, raw starch from 79.0 to 70.8%, basal diets to highest cellulose levels, respectively). The apparent digestibility of nitrogen-free extract decreased from 93.9% in the basal cooked starch diet to 84.5% at the highest cellulose level. The figures for the raw starch diets were similar (decrease from 93.4 to 85.9%). Cellulose decreased the apparent digestibility of energy in all diets. This decrease was more marked in the high starch diets (cooked starch decrease from 89.1 to 69.6%, raw starch from 88.9 to 70.2%) than in the high fat diet (decrease from 90.1 to 76.1%). An evaluation of previous data showed that in general fibre has a higher impact on the apparent digestibility of energy in high carbohydrate diets than in low carbohydrate diets. The apparent digestibility of potassium, sodium and chloride was impaired by cellulose. The apparent digestibility of these minerals tended to be lower in the high starch diets, especially in the raw starch diet, and the effect of cellulose was usually more marked in those diets.

[Nika]

čaki svetle barve mladiček, katere pasme je to?

Odrasla pritlikava šnavcerka z alergijo na določeno vrsto hrane (ne vem katere, se nismo šli izločevalne diete), ki se mi je po enem mesecu hranjenja z divjačino začela spet praskat, tako da grema nazaj na ene in edine brikete, ki ji ne povzročajo problemov.

[Taar]

No tole sem mislila glede starejših psov. Meni vet hoče dopovedati, da starejši pes mora dobiti manj proteinov. Pa celo NestlePurina je sponzorilrala ta članek. 

Top Companion Anim Med. 2008 Aug;23(3):154-7.

Pet food safety: dietary protein.
Laflamme DP.
Nestlé Purina PetCare Research, St. Louis, MO, USA. [email protected]

Abstract
The goal of this article was to review the evidence surrounding the risks posed by insufficient or excessive dietary protein. Dietary protein is required to provide essential amino acids and replenish protein reserves. When intake is deficient, protein turnover slows and lean body mass is gradually depleted. These changes lead to increased morbidity and mortality. Dogs can maintain nitrogen balance (typically used to define minimum requirements in adults), yet be in a protein-depleted state due to physiologic adaptations. Preservation of protein turnover and lean body mass requires about threefold more protein than nitrogen balance. The ability of excess dietary protein to induce renal pathology was studied in both dogs with chronic kidney failure and older dogs without kidney failure. Numerous studies have confirmed that protein does not adversely affect the kidneys. However, phosphorus- and protein-restricted diets are clinically beneficial in dogs with existing chronic kidney failure. Protein restriction for healthy older dogs is not only unnecessary, it can be detrimental. Protein requirements actually increase by about 50% in older dogs, while their energy requirements tend to decrease. When insufficient protein is provided, it can aggravate the age-associated loss of lean body mass and may contribute to earlier mortality. Older dogs should receive at least 25% of their calories from protein, typically provided by diets containing at least 7 g protein/100 Kcal ME.

[Taar]

Odrasla pritlikava šnavcerka z alergijo na določeno vrsto hrane (ne vem katere, se nismo šli izločevalne diete), ki se mi je po enem mesecu hranjenja z divjačino začela spet praskat, tako da grema nazaj na ene in edine brikete, ki ji ne povzročajo problemov.

Aja, saj res, duuh, šnavcerji so tudi pritlikavi. Me je zaedla ta velika ob njej.
Pa je en mesec jedla izključno in samo divjačino? Nobenih priboljškov, dodatkov? Čeprav samo mesna divjačina ni okej, ker nima kosti...

[Taar]

NO, ko sem včeraj malo preveč zapadla v članke na PubMed, še tole o segrevanju hrane (torej kuhanju, pečenju, obdelavi pri visokih temperaturah). Mi je žal, da nisem kemik/biolog, da bi to bolje razumela, ampak bistvo je, da se amino kisline spremenijo, razpustijo verige in se lahko potem združujejo v druge oblike. Zato se sestava po obdelavi lahko zelo spremeni, rtecimo notri ni toliko lizina (ti članki so o lizinu), kot bi ga potrebovali (je esencialna amino kislina, ki je telo ne more sintetizirati in mora priti preko hrane, največ ga je v mesu in jajcih, big surprise).

J AOAC Int. 2008 Jul-Aug;91(4):901-6.

Available lysine in foods: a brief historical overview.
Moughan PJ, Rutherfurd SM.

Massey University, Riddet Institute, Private Bag 11 222, Palmerston North, New Zealand. [email protected]

Abstract
A brief historical overview is presented on the development of the science addressing lysine bioavailability in foods. Early observations that dietary protein utilization did not always correlate with gross amino acid composition led to an understanding that the amino acid lysine, in particular, can be easily damaged during food processing. Conventional amino acid analysis, involving a strong acid hydrolysis step, can lead to a significant degree of overestimation of lysine in processed foods. More recently, it has been found that not only food lysine content values but also estimates of lysine digestibility and digestible lysine contents may be erroneous. Estimates of absorbed (true ileal digestible) reactive lysine are accurate measures of available lysine. Technically, bioassays such as the slope-ratio assay determine utilized rather than available lysine.

[Taar]

J Agric Food Chem. 2007 May 2;55(9):3517-22. Epub 2007 Mar 29.

Available (ileal digestible reactive) lysine in selected pet foods.
Rutherfurd SM, Rutherfurd-Markwick KJ, Moughan PJ.

Institute of Food, Nutrition and Human Health, Massey University, Palmerston North, New Zealand. [email protected]

Abstract
A recently developed assay for determining available lysine (true ileal digestible reactive lysine) in foods and feedstuffs was applied to 20 commercially available cat foods. Semisynthetic diets, containing cat food as the sole protein source, were prepared. Titanium dioxide was included as an indigestible marker. The diets were fed to growing rats and digesta from the terminal ileum collected and analyzed, along with the diets, for reactive lysine. True reactive lysine digestibility was determined after correction for endogenous lysine loss at the terminal ileum of rats fed an enzyme-hydrolyzed casein-based diet. The amounts of digestible total lysine (conventional method) were also determined. Ileal total lysine digestibility significantly (P<0.05) underestimated (3.6-10.2%) lysine availability (ileal reactive lysine digestibility) for most of the cat foods tested. Ileal digestible total lysine significantly (P<0.05) overestimated the amount of dietary available lysine for all of the cat foods tested by between 38 and 143%. Total lysine digestibility determined using the conventional method of lysine analysis was inaccurate when applied to commercially available cat foods.

[Taar]

SE ne smem spomnit, kao so na eni tekmi na najhujšem soncu pri 32 stopinjah imeli razpostavljene vreče hrane...

J AOAC Int. 2005 May-Jun;88(3):949-54.

Absorption of chemically unmodified lysine from proteins in foods that have sustained damage during processing or storage.
Moughan PJ.

Massey University, Riddet Centre, Private Bag 11 222, Palmerston North, New Zealand. [email protected]

Abstract
When a food is processed or stored, amino acids can react with a number of chemical entities to produce new compounds that are often nutritionally unavailable to the consumer. During acid hydrolysis used in amino acid analysis, some of these compounds revert back to the parent amino acid, leading to errors in estimates of both the amino acid content of foods and amino acid digestibility. This is a particular concern for the amino acid lysine in damaged food proteins. Chemical assays have thus been developed to allow determination of unaltered or reactive lysine. However, there is evidence that, in damaged food proteins, not all of the reactive lysine is released during digestion and absorbed. The development and application of an assay for absorbed (ileal digestible) reactive lysine is discussed.

[Nika]

Jp, brez kakršnihkoli dodatkov, ravno zaradi tega, da sem videla kako bo odreagirala. Kosti je dobila pa toliko, kolkor sem jih našla v temu mesu od nimroda.

Tačrn je samec  

[Taar]

In to je biološka vrednost živila, če po domače rečem. Proteini se popolnoma spremenijo, ko so obdelani (lizin se denaturira že pri 75 stopinjah C, kar je manj kot vrelišče) in niso enako prebavljivi.

Adv Exp Med Biol. 1999;459:161-77.

Influence of feeding alkaline/heat processed proteins on growth and protein and mineral status of rats.
Sarwar G, L'Abbé MR, Trick K, Botting HG, Ma CY.

Nutrition Research Division, Health Canada, Ottawa, Ontario, Canada.

Abstract
Effects of feeding alkaline (0.1 N NaOH) and heat treated (75 degrees C for 3 h) proteins (lactalbumin and soybean protein isolate, SPI) on growth, and protein and mineral status of rats have been determined. The untreated and alkaline/heat treated lactalbumin contained 0.10 and 4.42 g lysinoalanine (LAL)/100 g protein, respectively. Similarly, the untreated and treated SPI contained 0.03 and 1.94 g LAL/100 g protein, respectively. The formation of LAL in the treated proteins was accompanied with a loss of cystine (73-77%), threonine (35-45%), serine (18-30%) and lysine (19-20%). The alkaline/heat treatments caused significant (P < 0.05) reductions in protein digestibility of lactalbumin (99 vs. 73%) and SPI (96 vs. 68%). The processing treatments also caused a drastic negative effect on protein quality, as measured by rat growth methods such as relative protein efficiency ratio (RPER) and relative net protein ratio (RNPR). The RPER and RNPR values of untreated lactalbumin and SPI were 89-91 and 56-64%, respectively. But the RPER and RNPR values of the treated lactalbumin and SPI were 0%. The mineral status of rats was also compromised by feeding alkaline/heat treated proteins. Liver iron levels in male rats (165-180 micrograms/g dry weight) and female rats (306-321 micrograms/g dry weight) fed the treated proteins were about half the levels in male rats (229-257 micrograms/g dry weight) and female rats (578-697 micrograms/g dry weight) fed the untreated proteins. The kidney iron contents of rats fed the treated proteins were also lower than that of rats fed the untreated proteins. Liver copper levels of male and female rats fed the treated proteins were up to three fold higher than those found in rats fed the untreated proteins. The data suggested that LAL, an unnatural amino acid derivative formed during processing of foods, may produce adverse effects on growth, protein digestibility, protein quality and mineral bioavailability and utilization. The antinutritional effects of LAL may be more pronounced in sole-source foods such as infant formulas and formulated liquid diets which have been reported to contain significant amounts (up to 2400 ppm of LAL in the protein) of LAL.

[Taar]

Jp, brez kakršnihkoli dodatkov, ravno zaradi tega, da sem videla kako bo odreagirala. Kosti je dobila pa toliko, kolkor sem jih našla v temu mesu od nimroda.

To je premalo kosti, razen če je bilo  tvojem izjemno veliko kosti, jaz sem našla le dve koščici. Potrebuje 10% kosti zaradi kalcija, če ne, je neravnovesje. In pa 10% organov, nujno, od tega jeter 5%.
Izločevalne diete, ravno včeraj sem brala te znanstvene članke na pUbMedu, testirali so tudi po 10 ali 13 tedno na eni hrani, da so res lahko izločili.

Je bilo celo morje člankov o tem in v bistvu temu rečejo občutljivost na hrano, ki se manifestira v kožnih ali gastro stanjih.

[Desobediencia]

Ja, te so baje starejše, a ne, in so seveda drastično različne od piščancev, ki jih vidimo v trgovini. Kosti so pa trše, ker gre za odrasle/starejše živali. Čisto druga žvau, ne? (se spomnim kur ori stari mami, svet razlike od današnjih baterijskih).

Čaki Desobed. kje pa vi živite, pasavci? (Je to v Sloveniji?) Tamala jazbečarka je pa tako lušna, na enih drugih slikcah mislim da je bila na Pesjanarju enkrat...

Mislim, da imajo okrog 3 leta. Samo te bodo za jajca, sem vedno hotela imeti ene par kur So pa cist oskubljene, res niso prav nic lepe.
Na sliki z argentinko je pa samec Jazbecar Mi drugace zivimo v Argentini.

[Taar]

O uau, Argentina. Kako je svet majhen. Ker tale pasavec me je čisto iztiril. V vsakem primeru so mi resasti jazbečarji prav lušni.

Ja, ful zanimivo, poznam kar nekaj ljudi, tudi takih ki so bili celo v mestu vzgojeni, da si nabavljajo kure za svoja jajca.

[Desobediencia]

Bi mela se kravo, samo se ni cas za to

[Taar]

Čakaj, počasi. Najprej koza. Potem krava:)

[Taar]

Kaj si mislila s tem? Da povzročijo hitrejšo rast, kar je slabše za kosti? Moja vzrediteljica hrani mladiče z briketi za odrasle pse ravno zaradi tega, saj pravi, da imajo puppy briketi preveč maščob, kar pse samo napihne, povzroči hitrejšo rast. Sklicuje se na to, da tudi volkovi svojih mladičev ne hranijo z nikakršnim puppy pripravkom, ampak enako hrano, kot jo uživajo oni. Vsak dan dobijo še porcijo surovega mesa, povečini so to kurji vratovi, kurja prsa, vampi ali mleto meso.

Ja, puppy briketi so marketinška zamislica na podlagi ''life stages'' strategije diverzifikacije hran. Da ima kupec občutek, da izbira. Pri nobeni živalski vrsti mame mladičev ne hranijo (razen mleka) z bilo čim drugim, kar bo jedel celo življenje. Edina razlika je, da morajo mladiči dobiti isto količino hrane kot odrasli, torej zelo veliko glede na svojo težo.

Eni agilitašici so v zelo dobro psarni za mladiča, kjer se je predvidevala dolgonogost, kar sami dali dietne brikete ali kako že, da naj jih meša, zato da mladiček nikakor ne bo prehitro rasel. Tako da po mojem so briketi za odrasle čisto okej. Še boljši je pa tisti drugi del (meso:) Ker ja, mladički naj ne rastejo prehitro. Ga pač tipaš in poskrbiš, da ni buhteljček.

Vzreditelji na surovem pravijo, da mladički rastejo bolj enakomerno, ni nenadnih obdobij rasti.

[Taar]

Prehitro rast mladičev povzročijo briketi, ki so bili narejeni točno zato: da mladiči čim hitreje zrastejo. Zaradi česar pride do vnetij pokostnice in slabših vezi. Vzameš dobre puppy brikete, ki omogočajo normalno in enakomerno rast (ja tudi take se dobi).
Eksperimentira z izključno samo surovim mesom pri majhnih mladičih pa naj kar, kdor ima dovolj korajže. Sama nikoli ne bi omejla mladiče na eno samo vrsto hrane, menim da morajo mladiči preden gredo iz legla dobiti vse vrste hrane - od briketov vsaj dveh različnih znamk, do kuhane hrane - tudi žitarice, pa čeprav jih ne rabijo, zelenjave, kuhanega mesa, surovega mesa, mleka in mlečnih izdelkov...tudi če malo odstopaš od idealnih razmerij. Potem lahko novi lastnik brez vsakega prehoda lahko hrani po kateri koli shemi si zamisli, pa ne bo imel posebnih težav.

Samo kako pa vemo, da bodo briketi, ki jih kupimo, tisti, ki ne povzročajo prehitre rasti? Vemo, da so se formule puppy briketov drastično spremenile v zadnjih letih, žal na podlagi živih testov cele populacije, ki jih je jedla in so mladiči predvsem velikih pasem rasli prehitro. Žal se je to ugotovilo pri kupcih, ne pri laboratorijskih testih.

Mladiči na surovem niso omejeni na eno vrsto hrane. V parih tednih se mladiče lahko pohrani že skoraj z večino vrst proteinov, neki blazni prehodi so manj potrebni (pri odraslih se gre počasneje z vpeljevanjem novih proteinov). Mladiči jedo vse možne kose, reze, dele telesa. Omejeni na eno vrsto hrane so tisti, ki jedo ene brikete (večinoma ljudje kupijo ene in jih hranijo dolker ne zmanjka). Mačke so pa bolj kritične, ker ko se enkrat navadijo na brikete, je nekatere izredno težko pregovoriti, naj poskusijo še kaj drugega in je potreben dolgotrajni prehod preko konzerv. In mačk se seveda ne sme pustiti lačnih, kot lahko to narediš pri odraslemu zdravemu psu. 

[Jamsi]

To je pa taka priloznostna papica:





Ostali del zajca (bila sta dva) smo skuhali za enega od psov, del na sliki je bil pa parim ful zanimiv pa so malo grickali..psica na sliki je med drugim pojedla tudi odrezane tacke, z dlako..so ji ble vsec, pa kaj cem

Je tudi to priložnostna papica?

http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=191179&id=198761080630&fbid=281611785630

[Taar]

Desoobedienca, a to na lovu na merjasca ste vi?

MOji psi so fovš. Sta šeltija in bi prepustila večji del sicer argentincem, ampak bi se z veseljem pol pridružila.

[Lanabela]

No tega, kateri briketi ne povzročajo prehitre rasti je dobro znano, saj je ob njih zraslo že veliko pasjih generacij.
In ne, ni bila slučajna napaka iz neznanja. Briketi za pospešeno rast so bili narejeni zanalašč. Zato, ker so bili vzrediteljem in kupcem taki veliki (niti ne izrazito debeli) mladiči všeč. In so se kot taki tudi reklamirali - v spominu mi je ostala reklama iz tuje revije, v kateri so dvomesečni setri v velikosti štirimesečnih. Kasneje so bili prisičljeni formule malo popraviti, a ne dovolj - mladiči še vedno rastejo prehitro. Če se kdo med briketi ne znajde, naj se izogiba vsemu ameriškemu, razen mogoče (jih ne poznam dovolj dobro, da bi z gotovostjo trdila) tistim najbolj vrhunskim

[Taar]

Glede ameriške hrane je pa res to, na forumu za surovo je en zavzdihnil, da ni čudno da EU noče ameriške govedine. Sem bila malo začudena, ampak je res Eu dala prepoved uvoza ameriškegovedine za ljudsko rabo v Eu, ker so tam drugačni standardi i nje mose veliko bolj našopano z antibiotiki, hormoni... Skratka ne zadostuje EU zahtevam. Okej, dalo bi se debatirati o protekcionistični kmetijski politiki EU; ampak dejstvo je, da imamo hvala bogu tukaj bolj stroge kriterije za prehrano (naši kmetje pa imajo žal zbite cene za meso, da je žalostno).

Je pa tudi res, ko govorimo o tem, da imamo cele populacije/generacije psov, ki so zrasli na teh ali onih briketih... kje pa imamo referenčno skupino psov, hranjenih na surovem? Je ni, da bi lahko resnično primerjali tukaj v Slo obe populaciji z neko signifikanco. So posamezni primeri, ko poskusijo in odnehajo hitro, pa vprašanje, kaj so sploh hranili, če so se držali približnih okvirov razmerij. Recimo poznam primer, ko je pes jedel skuto, laneno olje in mleto meso. To ni primerna hrana, sploh! Bo ogromen prebitek fosforja, maščobe so napačne... Je je pa nekaj mesecen nazaj se v to temo javil gospod, ki je mislim da rekel, da je vrzreditelj nemških ovčarjev in da hrani surovo že 30 let (iz Slovenije). Ker mi je tudi kolegica povedala, da je šla gledat leglo nemcev k enemu vzreditelju, ki je hranil surovo.

Da pa bi imeli neko omembe vredno populacijo tukaj, ki hrani samo surovo že nekaj generacij, da bi res videli razlike (imunski sistem, nagnjenost k alergijam....) - nimamo. Tudi recimo so ugotovili, da so normalne vrednosti pri analizi krvi psov, ki so hranjeni surovo, drugačne od tistih, ki jedo brikete. Najprej so mislili, da je to seveda nekaj narobe s surovimi psi, ampak vsi zdravi surovi psi imajo podobne vrednosti, ki so stabilne v času in se malce razlikujejo od briketiranih. Na to temo so že članki, ampak če daš surovemu psu kri analizirati v Sloveniji k vetu, ki še pod rokami ni imel surovega psa, ki teh člankov še ni videl, bo seveda šokiran in ti bo rekel, da je s psom nekaj narobe.

V glavnem, ne zdi se mi pravilna trditev, da vemo, da bo s psi, ki jedo raznoliko (čeprav pod te raznolike tipe hranil nekatera preprosto ne sodijo tja), da bodo taki najbolje se razvijali, rasli in se starali, da je to dokazano bolje kot surovo. Ker enostavno surovih psov tukaj NI, da bi jih postavili ob bok takim, ki jedo drugačno hrano.

Dostikrat kak novinec na forumu za surovo prestrašeno vpraša, ali je kdo na forumu, ki ima stare pse. In se oglasijo veterani, ki so po možnosti že 30 let vzreditelji na izključno surovem in imajo v hiši 16, 18-letnike. Ki pač potrebujejo malo manj kosti, ampak dočakajo častitljivo zdravo starost.

[agility loving girl]

http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=191179&id=198761080630&fbid=281611785630

okej, tole mi je pa že malo mimo a to se pa ne šteje pod mučenje, da se na živo žvau spusti pse, da jo pomalem grickajo dokler se ne vda? Ma dejte no..kolkr vem smo v dobi strelnega orožja in se da hitreje opravt.

[Taar]

Ja, jaz sem prvič samo na hitro odprla in zaprla in mislila, da so dobili merjasca (primerno ulovljenega) in bo za pasjo hrano, potem pa šla še enktar pogledat in videla, da gre za lov na živo. Tako da ja, meni je tudi sapo zaprlo.

Sicer verjetno naj bi bila to neka tradicija in ti psi za to narejeni, ampak saj imamo čisto sodobno strelno orožje za odstrel.

[Jamsi]

S tem namenom sem tudi objavila link, da vidite kako se pride do "priložnostne papice".  Mi gre še zdj na bruhanje 

[maja01]

Sicer nisem pristas lova s psi (oz. lova sploh), ampak dogosi so bili "narejeni" tocno zato kar je prikazano na teh slikah. Za lov na divje prasice in pume. Situacija v Argentini (in se kaksnem delu sveta) je nekoliko drugacna kot v Evropi - tako glede tega s cim se ljudje prezivljajo, kot glede divjih zivali in skode, ki jo le-te povzrocijo. Verjetno ima lov s psi nek namen, saj jih se danes, kljub vsemu obstojecemu orozju uporabljajo tocno za to - za lov na divje prasice, saj je to (menda) edina ucinkovita metoda lova. Ne gre za lov "za zabavo", ampak so to delovni psi, ki pocno tisto za kar je bila pasma narejena.

Btw, malo hecno je v temi o surovem in sredi debate o divjacini se zgrazati nad takimi slikami ... Saj menda ne mislite, da divjacinsko meso, ki ga narocamo na vrtu zraste, ne? Pa ne se farbat - pobiijanje zivali v klavnicah je svetlobna leta dalec od humanega, se toliko bolj pa nacin na kakrsnega je vecina teh zivali rejenih.

Priporocam v googlanje kaksno dejstvo o zgodovini pasme, pa wild boar hunting with dogos (je ponekod tudi razlozeno zakaj s psi in slike skode, ki jo merjasci povzrocijo in druga dejstva so tudi zraven).

[Taar]

Saj saj Maja, vse to je res, ampak da ne bi slučajno kdo mimo prišel in nas inšpekciji prijavil, ker bi mislil, da če govorimo o surovem hranjenju, da se skrivoma udeležujemo ilegalnih načinov lova ali da spuščamo pse na divjad. Tudi ni to namen te teme.

Drugo kot praviš je res, ampak klavne živali bi končale kot bi končale z ali brez tega, da potem mi poberemo ostanke. Dejstvo je, da so določene živali namenjene za hrano. Žal lahko rečemo bobu bob. Ampak, še vedno pa je v vsej tej situaciji bolj humano klati lokalne živali (da je transport čim krajši) ali živali, ki so se pasle na prostem (ovce, koze), ulovljena divjačina pa tudi ni tako grozna stvar. Je vsaj nekemu minimumu zadoščeno. Dejstvo je, da ljudje želimo jesti le zrezke in fileje, toliko pa se meče stran, popolnoma v redu mesa, samo pač tega danes nočemo več jesti. Ne vem, ko sem bila v klavnicah me je kar razžalostilo, kakšna družba odpadkov smo. Le zrezki, ostalo naj se zmeče stran, pa temu primerno več prašičev/telet/piščancev je treba vzrediti.

Drugače pa si jaz nič ne zatiskam oči. Jaz tudi jem meso in imam pse, ki jedo meso.

[EnNa]

Taar a, če ima pes drisko, mu ti skuhaš piščanca ali mu vseeno daš surovega? Je bilo kdaj kaj napisanega na to temo?